A native New Yorker who earned a degree in sociology from Minnesota's Carleton College, Barrie M. Osborne rose to the rank of 1st Lieutenant in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers before entering the film industry in 1970, as an apprentice editor and assistant production manager. Accepted into the Directors Guild of America trainee program, Osborne worked under the tutelage of directors such as Francis Ford Coppola, Alan Pakula and Sydney Pollack on films including The Godfather Part II, Three Days of the Condor and All The Presidents Men. He subsequently worked on a number of films in various capacities including Apocalypse Now, The Big Chill, King of Comedy, The Cotton Club, Cutter's Way, Fandango and China Syndrome.

During a two-year tenure as Vice President for Feature Production at Walt Disney Pictures, Osborne oversaw features including Ruthless People, The Color of Money, Tin Men, Three Men And A Baby, Tough Guys, Outrageous Fortune, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? and Good Morning Vietnam.

As producer of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Barrie Osborne won a British Academy of Film and Television Arts Award for Best Film, an AFI Film Award and was nominated for an Academy Award.

In addition to his work on The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Osborne executive produced the worldwide box office blockbuster and groundbreaking special effects award-winner The Matrix. His other producing credits include John Woo's Face/Off and China Moon. He has served as executive producer on The Fan, Dick Tracy, Child's Play, Wilder Napalm, Rapa Nui and Peggy Sue Got Married.

Osborne spoke on the phone with Ethan Gilsdorf from his office in Wellington, New Zealand, at 8am on May 16, 2003, about an hour before he was scheduled to take a helicopter to one of the film’s locations, where pick-up shooting for The Return of the King, the final installment of director Peter Jackson’s film trilogy, was scheduled to soon begin.

Q: How do you respond to criticism (mostly from Tolkien fans) that the films and marketing machine are demeaning to Tolkien’s legacy?

Osborne: I think that the writers Peter and Fran (Frances Walsh) and Philippa (Boyens) took great care to be true to the spirit of Tolkien’s work. So I would disagree with that point. Film is a different media from literature, so there is an interpretation that goes on when bringing it to the screen. Hopefully you capture the spirit. Tolkien himself said in an interview once, when someone wanted to bring one of his films to the stage, that he understood the liberties you’d have to take. Peter was respectful to the spirit. We did our best to draw to from Tolkien’s work.

I think if anything the films are powerful incentive to read the books. We’ve introduced a whole new generation to the books. And whole cultures, like Japan, which did not have an audience for the book. In Turkey, we were the number one film ever. We were in the top 10 films of all time in many countries: Australia we were 3 and 4, Austria 3 and 4, Bulgaria 8 and 10, Croatia 2 and 6, Czech Republic 2 and 6, Denmark 1, France the 5th, Iceland second, New Zealand 1, Norway 2nd and 3rd; Russia 1, Spain 2 and 3, Sweden 2nd.

Q: What kind of reaction to the first two films have you gotten from die-hard fans?

Osborne: My opinion is that they’re thrilled with the film. They’ve totally embraced the films. When we’ve gone out to the Academy Awards we’ve stopped at TheOneRing.net party. That was an amazing experience. The fans just cheered when the stars came in. These people are enthusiastic. They love the films, and all the traffic on the net supports that.

Q: Through what channels to do you get reaction?

Osborne: Peter is particularly into the net. I don’t know where he finds the time. I drive by his house at 4am, 5am and he’s still up, blazing away in front of the computer, e-mailing, doing rewrites.

Q: What kind of contact do you have with Christopher Tolkien (son of J.R.R. and his literary exucutor) and the Tolkien Estate and if any, how have they responded to the films?

Osborne: Early on I think Christopher was a little standoffish. He was concerned by the amount of publicity the films would get, about the stirring up interest from the films. He was concerned by how the books would be interpreted and also how it would affect the Tolkien family. In the end, he decided to neither support nor hinder us. Some of the Tolkiens did come to the film premier and supported it.

Q: Can you talk, about some of the hardest decisions I assume you and Peter Jackson had to make in terms of adapting the trilogy to film (what to cut? which characters ? tone? visual design?)

This is probably a better question for Peter. The key to the success of any movie is the screenwriting; screenwriting and casting. The casting is always a hard decision but it fell into place pretty easy. It was easy to get people interested in the film and we got many of our first choices.

I guess from my perspective, everyone had familiarity with the works. The fans of the novel we had to reach first and foremost. You know, when you get into these budgets, you need to guarantee you’re going to open the film. Our “star” was the novel. We needed to tap into the fan base. We also knew that you had to honor the fan base and get them into the theater and hope the audience would build from there.

Visually, how do you get the sets right, make them appear the way Tolkien described them? We made a commitment to get to difficult locations to get the exotic locale. The set for Edoras was an hour from the nearest accommodations and a lot of people thought we were crazy. But those kind of things paid off. They cost money, they were difficult, but they paid off.

Q: How do you and Peter Jackson divide decision-making? Are there areas that you disagree on in terms of who gets to decide what?

Osborne: I think it's delineated. But you do get into disagreements. On the whole New Line has been extremely supportive but sometimes you have to advocate the studio position. I have an obligation to making the movie, not New Line’s or Peter’s position but what is best for the film. Sometimes it’s advocating the point of view of the director. The film needs a vision, you have to support that director, but there are times when you have to do what’s right.

Sometimes we have an argument or a conflict but Peter understands. Peter had an tremendous amount of energy and he has an uncanny ability to see how far he can push something before it collapses. He finesses the movie, the cut, until he reaches the point when he can’t deliver on time. There is a point beyond which the remaining time prevents you from going back and fixing things.

We both are out to make the best movie. We both have that common goal, we both support each other.

Q: Where are you located right now?

Osborne: Wellington. Peter is based in Wellington, we have our studios here, and post-production facilities, sound, editing. Only the scoring is done in London. Most of the visual effects are done at Weta though we have some at LA-based activities for special effects.

Q: What’s it like working so far from Hollywood? How much of the production was actually done in LA?

Osborne: I’ve always loved doing films outside of Hollywood. I’m considered to good at what I do, but when in Hollywood there’s lots of give and take with the studios. Here, there’s more freedom, more satisfaction. I also think it’s part of my background. I come from a film background working in New York. You learn to be more self sufficient. The other aspect is that in New Zealand you’re further away from the pool of people you normally work with, which is a challenge but also an opportunity.

Q: In what areas has making The Return of the King been actually more difficult than the first two installments (I’m thinking in terms of expectations)?

Osborne: It’s really not that much different. You know that certain cast members like Orlando Bloom have become big so we wanted to make sure we had some great “Orlando moments” in the film. But we pretty much judge the film against itself. And provide the opportunities to make the film better. We’re doing pick-ups right now. It’s a rare opportunity to be able to go back and fix a problem. I worked with Francis (Ford Coppola) on Apocalypse Now and had that experience, that same ability to change, to be able to go back and address a weakness. But it’s rare. Because of the long production schedule and the success of the first two films the studio is happy for us to got back and spend extra money to address weaknesses.

Q: To what extent is creating the third film in a trilogy easier than the first two? (I’m thinking in terms of technical problems solved; the fact that the principle shooting was completed almost, how many, three years ago)

Osborne: The now movie is in the best state of the three of them, when comparing all three at this same time before release. In the first film, there was a lot of concern by the studio as to whether the technology, whether Weta Digital was able top pull it off, to make Gollum look real, to deliver on the huge armies needed for the second film. On the first film we proved that the animation could look good: the cave troll, the Watcher in the water. On the second film, Gollum looked good. Now no one doubts that can deliver on the visual effects.

For the third film, you’ve got an even bigger battle in the third film for Minas Tirith, Pelennor Fields. The epic nature of the film is even bigger for film three. The thing that is heightened even more is the emotional drama, the emotional resolution of the characters. The three-dimensionality of the film is a tribute to Jackson and also Tolkien. Aragorn grows to become king, that’s an incredible story. Any of the characters have a three-dimensional emotional arc and you feel the emotional impact of them.

Q: Will the studio release all three again at the same time so fans can watch them back to back?

Osborne: I’m not allowed to say but I imagine the studio is considering that.

Q: I think I lot of people are confused about the role of a producer on and off the film set. Can you elaborate on your role as producer?

Osborne: My role shifts from film to film, depending on the director. Peter originated the project so he was a producer. My role on the film was to figure out the logistics, to put together the crew on the film, to trouble shoot all the administration and logistical things, to maintain trust and relations with the studio so they would trust us. I supported Peter’s vision to bring Tolkien’s vision to the screen. I also helped with the casting, I brought in Hugo Weaving. I had worked with him on The Matrix and I became great friends with Hugo. They got stumped with the casting of Elrond and I suggested Hugo and they said, What a great idea.

My job has a broad spectrum. You go through pre-production, you try to make sure everything Peter is imagining is going to happen --- the extras, casting, digital work, locations, the things Weta does, effects. I make sure the foundations are laid correctly. You try in pre-production to make contingencies (what if it rains? what if …?). There was a time when Weta was going through growing pains. They were growing from a very small company mostly involved in research and development that Peter started long ago on Heavenly Creatures, and he was bringing that small organization up to the big effects company that it is today. I was involved in bringing in some key people to make it grow. I also was going out and directing some second unit stuff for Peter. I was making a decision to build a road or not build a road for a location. I was making the cast happy, since they were far from home.

I also was working with the post-production sound. Since our films are about three hours long there are two-and-a-half hours of music that Howard Shore needed to compose. So, Peter goes to London for recording and I stay in New Zealand to supervise post-production. I needed to find another way for Peter to be involved with what was going on back in New Zealand. So I arranged for a virtual private satellite network between London and New Zealand for Peter to see and make comments on the effects, the second unit shooting. I arranged for that.

Q: You entered the DGA trainee program (early in your career)– did you want to be a director?

Osborne: In reality the DGA program really taught you how to be an assistant director and production manger. Which is more directly related to being a producer. When I was a training we made a tiny film and when I was younger I used to make little movies. But my skills are really in organization. Which is more directly related to being a producer. When I was a training we made a tiny film and when I was younger I used to make little movies. But my skills are really in organization.

Q: You also served as a studio exec as VP of feature production at Disney. Describe how that experience has influence how you now work as a producer.

Osborne: I started out doing Peggy Sue Got Married (for Francis Ford Coppola) and (Jeffrey) Katzenberg and (Michael) Eisner had just taken over. Eisner brought over (Frank) Wells, quite an interesting guy. I got a call from Katzenberg and he wanted to hire someone. I never wanted to work for a studio. I went to Francis and I said, What should I do? and he said maybe I could have some influence on the inside so I said, Yes. It was interesting. We did a lot of great films. Disney when I joined was anxious to prove that they had a stream of project going. Katzenberg said to me when I left, For the first time in motion picture history every film I made came in or under budget. On the whole it was a good experience but I was so removed from the experience of filmmaking. So going back to producing, I have an insight into what the studio needs and also that the studio execs don’t know the intricacies of your production. I learned when you hire people you have hire people you trust.

Q: What stage is the current film in? You are shooting pick-ups on Monday.

Osborne: Now we’re in the pick up shooting. We are lucky in that we really everyone back (the whole cast). We had some pick up shoots with Orlando, he’s on break from a current project so we’ll shoot scene with him alone and we’ll use doubles for the other actors involved with him. Then when the rest of the cast arrives we’ll use a double for Orlando.

We had a cut of the third movie back in September. As you know, we have a long production schedule; we were able to cut the film for previews last year. Peter looked at it again in perspective after time had passed and he can see what he wants to change. Then he went through a writing phase, and then we’re doing pick-ups to clear up some confusions and make it stronger. Because it is the finale, it is extremely emotionally demanding, so we are going through an extremely long period of pick up shooting. More like 50 days. We pretty much have the entire cast, thought we have to wait for some actors to be available.

Q: Does your experience as a lieutenant in the US Army Corps of Engineers inform your work as a producer?

Osborne: I was drafted during Vietnam but ended up in Korea, thank goodness. During that period of time the Army tries to put you into the OCS officer training. In Korea we were building roads and bridges. At the time I was sent over after being drafted, I was against the Vietnam war. But in retrospect the experience was positive. You learned organization and discipline. We were an engineering unit with 2000 men and this film crew is 2000. We were upgrading roads and bridges. We were two groups then, very similar to having a main unit and second unit. The skills I learned in the Army applied when making this film.

Q: I’ve been talking to lots of academic scholarly experts these past few weeks; What kind of reaction to the films have you received from them?

Osborne: From what I’ve gotten personally it’s been positive. There are some people, a writer who writes about Tolkien critically, he was enthusiastic. Even the serious Tolkien literary following are in favor of the film.

Q: What kind of experts, literary scholars did consult with?

Osborne: Bill Welden is the guy we used for the Tolkien languages, Elvish, Dwarvish, Dark Speech. We also used David Salo from the University of Wisconsin.

Tom Shippey (did you hear the NPR interview he gave two years ago? It was great), he gave me a good perspective on Tolkien. There is the prologue, the part of the story takes place 3000 years ago, and so Shippey said that we needed an older version of the Elvish language to reflect the passing of time. Tolkien has provided that.

Shippey hypothesizes that JRR Tolkien traced back various linguistic roots from Celtic and Norway, Iceland. He traced back a common root of myth to Middle-earth. He felt that Tolkien tapped into a commonality of myth, a European myth. He taps into what Joseph Campbell says about myth, the universality. Shippey’s sense of the films was them being good. As you know there is a huge amount of background exposition necessary to the story. Shippey had a conversation early on with Peter Jackson and when he saw the film he felt that Jackson had really nailed the problem of exposition. Bill Welden when he came down he was impressed with the set design.

I came into the production later on after Miramax had cancelled it and given us a month to find new backers. I came in when New Line came in, when the new management on the film changed. I came down and saw the pre-production, the set design, the armor, all the attention to detail and artistry that was so great. You could see the quality of the detail. That’s because Tolkien’s description was to rich. Early on, Jackson employed Alan Lee and John Howe. So, the work was designed by Tolkien experts and that success was a result of the detail in the books.

Salo contributed to the linguistic side. Early one we would send him script pages that needed to be translated into Elvish and Dwarvish and he did that and also made a pronunciation guide which we gave to the dialogue coaches. In addition we had him videotape himself close up to show how to pronounce the languages. It was funny. Salo looks like a young Bill Gates; he’s quite charming. The final step was to put some of the final text for the other international version in various languages for the dubbers. That was so that Spanish version of Aragorn is speaking Elvish correctly. But I hadn’t heard if other Elvish scholars felt slighted or not.

Editor's Note: Ethan Gilsdorf comes to us by special arrangement for which we are very grateful. Since 1999 Ethan Gilsdorf has lived in Paris, where he is a poet, freelance writer and critic. A regular contributor to Time Out, The Boston Globe, Poets and Writers, Fodor’s travel guides, The Washington Post, and the Chronicle of Higher Education, he writes on arts, culture, travel, film, cuisine and books. More info at: http://www.ethangilsdorf.com.

Ethan Gilsdorf